Баҳси Википедиа:Роҳнамои намуд

Рӯихат ё Феҳрист

About the "List" thing... All of the lists we currently have are with (Рӯихат) "Ruikhat". See

Рӯихати дарёҳо Рӯихати кишварҳо Рӯихати номҳои Иттифоқӣ Шурави Рӯихати пойтахтҳои кишварҳои Африқо Рӯихати шаҳрҳои Туркия Рӯихати ҷойҳои таърихи археологӣ Рӯйхати шаҳрҳои Афғонистон

I just copied Ibrahim about this. - FrancisTyers 20:20, 16 Сентябр 2006 (UTC)

I think Феҳрист should be used for "list" (because it's more common and it's also used in the old books). What do you think about it? Jahongard 19:52, 16 Сентябр 2006 (UTC)

I am not against, as both of them are correct and easy to understand --Ibrahim 09:24, 17 Сентябр 2006 (UTC)

We can see examples of both on the internet. But more of 'Феҳрист', although ' Рӯихат' definitely means 'list', we can see here, "Рӯихати дигари асирони Гуантанамо нашр шуд". For 'Феҳрист', it seems that at least Google uses it to mean 'directory', and while they are similar meanings they aren't exactly the same. Anyway, it is up to you guys as native speakers. All my opinion is that we should be consistent and use the term with the maximum clarity. - FrancisTyers 11:07, 17 Сентябр 2006 (UTC)

In the classic literature, Феҳрист is used as "list", "catalogue", and "database". For the current usage of this word in Tajiki texts, it's better to look at texts written in Tajikistan or by Tajiks. I looked at some links and it seems that they use it as "list" [1], [2], [3]. Рӯихат also means list. However, I prefer Феҳрист for two reasons:

1. It seems that Феҳрист is more common than Рӯихат [4],[5] .
2. Феҳрист is used in the literature (unlike Рӯихат which is a relatively new word). Personally, in equal circumstances, I prefer those words which are based on literary tradition and can be understood by a broader group. Jahongard 18:35, 17 Сентябр 2006 (UTC)

Is 'Рӯихат' a Tajik coining, or a loan from somewhere else? I agree that at least on the internet "Феҳрист" has much more of a prescence. Which would you say is less ambiguous? Also, here are we talking about Persian literary tradition, or Tajik literary tradition? - FrancisTyers 18:50, 17 Сентябр 2006 (UTC)

Until the begining of the twentieth century, the literary tradition is the same. 'Рӯихат' is a new Tajik coining (It's not a loanword). Jahongard 19:11, 17 Сентябр 2006 (UTC)

рӯйxат has almost the same meaning as сиёҳа سیاهه (in the modern Iranian variant of Persian). Феҳрист means list (in a broader sense) and its usage is almost the same in Iran, Afghanistan and Tajikistam.Jahongard 19:19, 17 Сентябр 2006 (UTC)

Қорра ё Қитъа

Which word is used often for "Continent"? It seems that ozodi.org uses Қорра [6]. Jahongard 13:40, 20 Сентябр 2006 (UTC)

Ozodi.org also uses Қитъа [7]. In fact about the same frequency. Searching under site:.tj gives more results for Қитъа. It is used on president.tj - FrancisTyers 13:51, 20 Сентябр 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is used frequently. But Қитъа generally means "part" and in ozodi.org they have used it as "part" (not "continent"). Also, in president.tj, Қитъа is used as "part". Jahongard 13:57, 20 Сентябр 2006 (UTC)

I defer to your judgement :) This is why is it imperative to have native speakers around :) FrancisTyers 14:12, 20 Сентябр 2006 (UTC)

Some terminology required for infoboxes

Trade unions/Labour unions : "иттиҳодияҳои синфӣ" or иттифоқҳои касабаи ё "иттиҳодияҳои коргарӣ"?

I prefer "иттиҳодияҳои синфӣ" [8]. Also, иттиҳодия is a good equivalent for "union" and it's used in other compound words such as "Иттиҳодияи Аврупо". Jahongard 15:52, 21 Сентябр 2006 (UTC)

Note: "Labour union" and "Trade union" are the same thing — English: Trade union, Canadian/Australian: Labour Union, USian: Labor Union. - FrancisTyers 16:14, 21 Сентябр 2006 (UTC)

In Iran, using "иттиҳодияҳои коргарӣ" (labour unions) is more common. However, иттиҳодияҳои синфӣ (trade unions) has a slightly different meaning and it's about unions, limited in membership to people in the same trade. Jahongard 13:43, 22 Сентябр 2006 (UTC)

This is the difference between en:Trade union and en:Craft union. - FrancisTyers 14:03, 22 Сентябр 2006 (UTC)

Nontheless, I think иттиҳодияҳои синфии is better, because I'm sure that it is used in Tajikistan (there is "Федеросиюни иттиҳодияҳои синфии Тоҷикистон" [9] which means "Tajik Federation of Trade Unions"). Jahongard 14:09, 22 Сентябр 2006 (UTC)

The other is also used, see [10] Ignore results from Wikipedia, but there are 3 Tajik sites using this. Whereas only 1, for the other. (not that we should go purely on numbers)- FrancisTyers 18:52, 22 Сентябр 2006 (UTC)

OK, then "Иттифоқҳои касаба". Jahongard 19:34, 22 Сентябр 2006 (UTC)

Career/Occupation (in biography infobox): "Пеша" or "Визифа" (Визефа, Вазефа)

I prefer "Пеша", because it means Career/Occupation, but "Визифа" (Вазефа) means "duty". For example, about a painter, it's better to say "Пешаи вай наққошӣ аст", instead of "Визифаи вай наққошӣ аст". Jahongard 15:52, 21 Сентябр 2006 (UTC)

Instead of пеша we say касб. Касби дӯстдоштаи ман.- My favorite occupation/profession--Ibrahim 12:14, 22 Сентябр 2006 (UTC)

Касб is a good option too (Касбукор is better because it avoids the ambiguity with "Касб=achieving"). About пеша, I have seen it in Tajiki texts [11] (It is used in BBC, ozodi.org, President.tj, farhang.tj and some other websites). For example, in [12], "Пешаи омӯзгорӣ" is used. Jahongard 13:57, 22 Сентябр 2006 (UTC)

The BBC is generally not a good place to get Tajik text. They do not use the correct characters, and I think it is written by people speaking Iranian Persian. If it is used on president.tj and ozodi.tj then it should be ok. Please let me know when to change the template — it should be done in a special way to avoid breaking the articles that currently use it. - FrancisTyers 14:02, 22 Сентябр 2006 (UTC)

BBC doesn't use the standard spelling. Nontheless, they are Tajiks. For example, one of them who can use both Persian and Cyrrilic scripts, is Шаҳзода Назарзода (Шахзода Назарова) who is from Sughd. Jahongard 15:04, 22 Сентябр 2006 (UTC)

Қишлоқ ё Деҳа

Should we be using Қишлоқ or Деҳа to mean 'village' ?

Qishloq has more results for sites in Tajikistan [13] [14] , and it was the name with which Ibrahim created the article. The Tajik dictionary features both words (as confirmed by Ibrahim). I think probably this is just a style issue, so we should discuss it here. - FrancisTyers 14:26, 5 Октябр 2006 (UTC)

Qishloq is an Uzbek loanword. I think in equal circumstances, Persian/Tajiki words should be used as the main titles. Also, in the classic literature, only "Деҳа" and "Русто" are used as village. Jahongard 14:47, 5 Октябр 2006 (UTC)

Ok, we can ask Ibrahim tommorow. I will point him here. - FrancisTyers 15:00, 5 Октябр 2006 (UTC)

About the google search, I think we should search over all Tajiki pages (not only those which have .tj). Many important sources of Tajiki texts on the web (like www.ozodi.org) don't have .tj. Also, many pages in tajikistan have Russian texts (and some of them have Uzbeki texts). To search only Tajiki texts, we can search the word along with аст, ба, аз, and ва (because in almost all tajiki texts you can find these words). The results for Қишлоқ and Деҳа are in the same range [15] [16] ("Русто" gives slightly more results [17]). Jahongard 15:04, 5 Октябр 2006 (UTC)

Қишлоқ and Деҳа are mostly used by Tajiks. As for Русто's search result see the results where only ба, аз, ва and аст can be found in many. --Ibrahim 06:26, 6 Октябр 2006 (UTC)

So, which one is better? Қишлоқ or Деҳа? Jahongard 13:34, 6 Октябр 2006 (UTC)

Also, Ҷамоат apparently - FrancisTyers 12:58, 7 Октябр 2006 (UTC)

Because both Қишлоқ and Деҳа are commonly used and Деҳа is based on the classic literary tradition and is more official [www.kulob.tj/tarikh.html] [www.president.tj/guzorishho_Shahriston.htm] [www.president.tj/baromadho110706.htm] (also, according to Ibrahim), I move the page to Деҳа. Jahongard 16:51, 15 Октябр 2006 (UTC)

Proposal

Adjusted from: en:Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#National_varieties_of_English: - FrancisTyers 11:16, 7 Октябр 2006 (UTC)

• The title of the article should be the word or name most known in Tajik (e.g. Nishopur not Neyshabur). If there are several words known, see below:
  • Articles should use the same dialect throughout (e.g. no mixing Viloyat and Uston).
  • If an article's subject has a strong tie to a specific region/dialect, it should use that dialect (e.g. For articles about Iran, words from Iranian Persian may be used -- Uston not Viloyat).
  • Where there is no strong tie to a specific dialect, the dialect of the first significant contributor (not a stub) should be used (e.g. If words will be equally understood, the word first chosen will be used).
• Standardisation is not the be-all-and-end-all. (e.g. If multiple forms are in use, consensus should be had among native -- and fluent -- speakers as to which form to use. This may take time -- but it doesn't really matter -- it doesn't matter if we have some articles at "Ruikhat" and some at "Fehrist", the standard will be worked out eventually when we have more people, and it isn't difficult to do mass page moves).

I think it's a good proposal. However, for the sake of clarity, I think the first line should be something like this:

The title of the article should be the word or name most common in Tajiki texts (including classic and modern literature, governmental publications and webpages, and mass media). For example, for "map", "харита" should be used, not "нақша" ("нақша" should be used as "plan"). If there are several words which are commonly used, then ... Jahongard 20:01, 7 Октябр 2006 (UTC)

Ok, but if this is the case (and we are using all texts in Tajiki -- including Perso-Arabic, Latin, Cyrillic), I would add that texts in the Cyrillic orthography, and particularly the Tajiki dictionary (Farhangi Zaboni Tojiki) take precedence. On the English Wikipedia, we use common names rather than correct or literary names. e.g. en:Bill Clinton, not en:William Jefferson Clinton. I think this is the approach we should take here. If we can't find the common use on the internet, then we can just ask a native speaker. - FrancisTyers 10:19, 8 Октябр 2006 (UTC)

Of course the modern usage takes precedence (a word which is not used in modern Tajiki texts and is not mentioned in Tajiki dictionaries doesn't qualify as a commonly used Tajiki word). However, among different words which are commonly used in modern tajiki texts, those who are used in the classic literature should take precedence. Tajiki is not a new language, created in twentieth century. It has more than 1100 years of literary tradition behind it and the classic literature shouldn't be excluded from the language corpus.

About asking from native Tajiki speakers, at the end, this wikipedia should be run by them and the assumption is that these guidelines can be used if they propose different titles for the same page and adifferent words for the same concept. If their choices are not different, there won't be any discussion about that. Jahongard 19:26, 8 Октябр 2006 (UTC)

Yes, without question Tajik users should have the final say. We are but *searches for the right word* temporary custodians :) - FrancisTyers 16:17, 9 Октябр 2006 (UTC)

More

Тирамоҳ ё пойиз

I've moved this back to Тирамоҳ as Ibrahim says that this is the most widely known word in Tajik. - FrancisTyers 09:37, 1 Декабр 2006 (UTC)

Паланг ё бабр

Moved 'babr' to 'palang' (Tiger is 'palang').

"Palang" is different (It's Jaguar). Jahongard 19:18, 30 Ноябр 2006 (UTC)

My bad... shouldn't have trusted our dictionary :) I've rectified it there too. - FrancisTyers 08:38, 1 Декабр 2006 (UTC)

Паланг is tiger in English, and тигр in Russian - бабр is леопард--Ibrahim 09:42, 1 Декабр 2006 (UTC)

From Tajik Russian dictionary

Бабр - леопард

Паланг - тигр, барс

--Ibrahim 10:16, 1 Декабр 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure? I think Babr=Tiger, Palang=Jaguar, Sherpalang or Yuzpalang=Leopard. Could you please check the Tajik dictionary (edited by Shakurov)? Jahongard 11:17, 1 Декабр 2006 (UTC)

See [18]. From the discriptions, "ШЕРПАЛАНГ" and "Бабр" seem to be "Jaguar" (or "Leopard") and "Tiger", respectively. Jahongard 11:44, 1 Декабр 2006 (UTC)

See [19]. It talks about tigers of Tajikistan which were last seen in 1954. Compare it with [20] and the information about "Бабр". Jahongard 11:54, 1 Декабр 2006 (UTC)

Also see [21]. Apparently, sherpalang is "leopard" (or snow leopard). Jahongard 11:58, 1 Декабр 2006 (UTC)

Automated replacements needed

• Инҷоро ҳам бингарӣд --> Инҷоро ҳам бингаред

Офтоб ё Хуршед

Ibrahim says that 'oftob' is most commonly used in every day speech and in science, whereas 'khurshed' is used more in literature (e.g. poetry). - FrancisTyers 11:46, 23 Январ 2007 (UTC)